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 Post subject: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:25 am 
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MVP Microsoft Dynamics NAV
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:49 pm
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Location: Olst
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Today, Todd Bergesson of Microsoft confirmed at NAVUG that the classic forms as we have known them since 1995 will be discontinued in NAV "7".

This quote is from MSDynamicsWorld.

Quote:
The reason for this, Bergeson said, is twofold: First, SQL is the only server option for NAV 7, so when a user is upgrading to 2009, he needs to upgrade to SQL; and second, the Classic Client must be upgraded to the Role Tailored Client using the transformational tool in 2009, because the engine that runs the forms in previous versions will no longer exist.

"So, when you upgrade to 7, and everything's in forms, nothing will run," Bergeson said. "I can guarantee you, the forms aren't going to miraculously change and appear, because that's going to throw the development cycle out by another year. So, that engine is gone. Classic client is gone, so you just need to have that discussion now."


This means that NAV7 will not only ship without forms, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to run forms
So anyone who wants to use NAV 7, the RTC is the only option. This also means it is mandatory to go through 2009 to upgrade your forms to pages. This has two reasons.

1. The Transformation Tool is not shipped and/or updated for NAV "7"

This means that you would either have to run the old Transformation Tool but against what forms, this brings us to

2. The new funtionality is only in pages

So you cannot merge your forms with "7" forms and go to pages. You MUST merge your old forms with "6" forms, then goto "6" pages and then merge to "7" pages.

This is a mandatory path every upgrade must follow.

And this is old news, but it has never been official until now.

What are the other consequences...

From a development/partner perspective there are massive consequences, namely most partners have built their own development tools within NAV. And they won't work anymore. Let's have a look at the three most popular ones

1. Object Manager by Idyn.

Unless updated to pages this tool will not work anymore, and even then, it will be extremely hard to use since having a page based tool it requires all developers to have an RTC active on their development systeem. Which off course they should already, but still, it is more a hassle

2. MergeTool

This tool is already updated to pages (thank you Denster, I did not know that), so tool will still work , but the form versions can only be used in old versions.

3. ReVision

Here, there are no changes. Clearly this tool has been made with the vision that having a tool that resides within NAV does not have a long term future. ReVision is .Net based and uses an external repository. This tool should be a safe investment.

Exiting times...

http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/mark_brum ... m-era.aspx

_________________
Mark Brummel | Freelance Dynamics NAV (Navision) Specialist

Read my new book: Microsoft Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Design

MY BLOG : http://markbrummel.wordpress.com


Last edited by Mark Brummel on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:37 pm
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Location: AT
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Yippieee! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Although IDYN has not communicated actively about this, we have known the decision to discontinu forms for quite some time. We have discussed this feature extensively with Microsoft. We are in contact with MDCC on a regular basis to discuss the consequences of their plans for NAV 7.

The main reason Microsoft invited us for the NAV 7 Beta Program is because they need the development tooling (i.e. Object Manager Advanced) to be ready for NAV 7. The importance of tools like the Object Manager Advanced has grown ever since Microsoft announced to discontinue the NDT.

We are finalizing the Object Manager pages for NAV 7, and we still have enough time ahead to optimize the Object Manager Advanced before Microsoft releases NAV 7. The new and improved Object Manager Advanced 9.0 will launch on the exact same day as Dynamics NAV “7”. Of course, all partners who have bought the Object Manager Advanced already, will also receive this version.

Yes, things will change, and yes this will require a different way of working for all of us, including for the Object Manager Advanced. Rest assured though that we will bring the best experience possible to the RTC.

Martijn Knevel (IDYN)
mknevel@idyn.nl

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Visit www.idyn.nl for more information and news about the Object Manager Advanced, ConnectIT, E-Invoice and our other great products.


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Is there some annoucement that whether Classic reports will be available or not?

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CA Sandeep Singla
http://ssdynamics.co.in


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:49 pm 
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MVP Microsoft Dynamics NAV
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:49 pm
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They are dead too

http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/mark_brum ... -quot.aspx

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Mark Brummel | Freelance Dynamics NAV (Navision) Specialist

Read my new book: Microsoft Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Design

MY BLOG : http://markbrummel.wordpress.com


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:33 pm 
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MVP Microsoft Dynamics NAV

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:37 pm
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Sorry Mark, but you're WAY off base there, both on how the tool works and on whether it will work on pages. The current version already includes pages, and the repository is inside whatever database you choose.

<edit>removed outdated quote</edit>

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Daniel Rimmelzwaan
KCP Dynamics
MVP - Dynamics NAV


Last edited by DenSter on Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:42 pm 
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MVP Microsoft Dynamics NAV
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:49 pm
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Well, I'm sorry I did not know.

The only point I want to make it that this will make life of developers much more complex.

I will correct my blog post.

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Mark Brummel | Freelance Dynamics NAV (Navision) Specialist

Read my new book: Microsoft Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Design

MY BLOG : http://markbrummel.wordpress.com


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:12 pm 
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MVP Microsoft Dynamics NAV
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2002 7:01 am
Posts: 44
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States (us)
Screen shot from the current released version MGT1.30.12 in NAV 2009 R2 version
Role Center
Image
List of Versions
Image
Source Code Analyzer
Image
This is the latest released version of NAV.


Last edited by Per on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:22 pm 
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MVP Microsoft Dynamics NAV
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Country: Netherlands (nl)
Thank you Per, and again my deepest appologies.

Let this be an inspiration to all toolmakers in NAV.

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Mark Brummel | Freelance Dynamics NAV (Navision) Specialist

Read my new book: Microsoft Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Design

MY BLOG : http://markbrummel.wordpress.com


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:50 am
Posts: 216
Location: Nieuwe Niedorp
Country: Netherlands (nl)
We all know your relationship with Eric so we can read trough the lines when we read this blog. But others cannot, that’s bothers me a lot.

What you have written about the Object Manager is also complete bull. Can you please change it in: "The Object Manager is by far the best product and you have to buy it!" :D

What about this line "a tool that resides within NAV does not have a long term future". Huh? Really?
When you think about it it’s just the other way round. Both mergetool and Object Manager are made fully off NAV technology and can follow NAV wherever it goes. Revision is the one that depends on the current Object Designer. You literally call it in your TechDays presentation "it’s a backdoor and it’s not officially supported".

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Reijer Molenaar
Freelance NAV Developer
Object Manager
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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:39 pm
Posts: 580
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He honestly made a mistake and when pointed at it he retracted it. What can he do more? I understand you don't like his statements. We all think we are completely objective but were not. We like to be but really were not.

His remarks in the blog are his views and I read it as such. A very good blog with a lot of shared info.

If he plugs some addons into his blog thats ok by me. I can decide to use it or not. Actually he made me aware of your addon which a like too. It gave me an idea to create something for our company.
So both of you keep up the good work... :)


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:50 am
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Location: Kontich, Belgium
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I hate it being forced into reacting to this nonsense .. :x

First of all: Mark and I are friends indeed. Very good friends if you ask me. But that never has stood into our way of speaking for ourselves .. I'm not responsible for his statements - as he's not for mine. Dragging me into this is just a pitty (in the least).

I must say: I was not happy with Mark's post above, I was not happy with his latest - and I'm definitely not happy with Reijer's reaction to all this (seems like i'm a very unhappy man .. :? ).

The fact that forms are discontinued is not the reason at all why we chose to build iFacto ReVision like it is today. The reason is very simple: why would I need to upgrade all my customer databases (DEV, TEST and LIVE) when my Source Control tool is upgraded? In my opinion, this didn't make any sense - and because of the fact that I didn't find any tool that was NOT built in NAV, we decided to build our own! We have 200 customers running on it - and one update is enough to support new features in that one tool - for ALL customers. This is the way it should be with development tools. This is my opinion. The discontinuation of forms has nothing to do with that. And that's why I was not happy with Mark's post.

The statements of Reijer bothers me a lot. He attacks the architecture of our product, stating that it's made of unsupported backdoors into NAV. Now, to use his words: that's bull! Microsoft is fully aware of what we're doing .. and very interested and impressed . As long as the classic exists, they will keep the interface we use alive (so it IS supported). We already have a fully working iFacto ReVision on NAV7 - without any send keys or command prompt solutions (and this was added intentionally...). It has cost us 0,5 hour to get it working (including setup). Sounds like quite a solid architecture if you ask me.

Note that I didn't say or attack IDYN's product in any way.

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Eric Wauters
MVP - Microsoft Dynamics NAV
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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:50 am
Posts: 216
Location: Nieuwe Niedorp
Country: Netherlands (nl)
Hi Eric,

I read my post back, it’s indeed not very nice. I’m sorry for that. I’ve said it before: ReVision is a great product! I just wanted to counterbalance that big advertisement of Mark.

The second blog that Mark wrote yesterday is much better! Although comparing our tools is like comparing apples and pears. (or do I have to say apples and oranges in English).

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Reijer Molenaar
Freelance NAV Developer
Object Manager
TVblik


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:49 pm
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Country: Netherlands (nl)
These are the last words I am going to spend in this topic (unless something unexpected happens).

I mixed up two things. I have been wanting to write a post about Object Management for a very long time. Yesterday I have done that the way I should have done it in the first place with this post.

http://dynamicsuser.net/blogs/mark_brum ... art-i.aspx

When I first heard that Microsoft was planning to discontinue the form engine I could not believe that since it has a huge impact on development. I wanted to make this statement and use the "popular" tools as an example of the consequences.

Maybe I should not have done that...

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Mark Brummel | Freelance Dynamics NAV (Navision) Specialist

Read my new book: Microsoft Dynamics NAV 2013 Application Design

MY BLOG : http://markbrummel.wordpress.com


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 Post subject: Re: NAV "7" | The end of the Form era... (UPDATED !!)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:36 pm
Posts: 4
Country: Netherlands (nl)
The problem with typed words, is that sometimes a certain undertone is suspected, that is actually not there. Dynamics NAV is in the hearts of everyone who posted here for a very long time, and the tooling mentioned are equally loved by their makers, as they should, which is a good startpoint of an emotional conversation ;)

Anyway, the consequences of the discontinuation of forms are huge. The good thing is, that Microsoft is doing an excellent job in providing in depth information and knowledge of everything they are doing in this area, so all of us (in this case Mergetool, Revision and the Object Manager Advanced) can and will be ready for "NAV 7" next year. In fact, the Object Manager Advanced is already running in NAV 7 in the RTC. Ofcourse, were not allowed to share any "NAV 7" information and/or screens, but i've made an screenshot of the Object Manager running in NAV 2009 R2:

Image

Exciting times indeed :)

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Visit www.idyn.nl for more information and news about the Object Manager Advanced, ConnectIT, E-Invoice and our other great products.


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